Women's Health in the Workplace with Naomi Seddon, Partner at Littler Mendelson, author of Milk and Margaritas
About this episode:
Naomi Seddon is an international lawyer, thought-leader, and author of Milk and Margaritas. Her legal career spans 3 countries where she has worked with over 2,000 companies. Naomi also advocates and presents on workplace equality and issues impacting women at work. She was named by Legal 500 as a top attorney in the United States for legal advice and counseling. In addition to her role as an international lawyer, Naomi is regularly called upon to advise boards and executive management on their people issues.
Topics Discussed:
How Naomi’s personal experience with gender inequality has impacted her career
How she advocates for change and women’s rights in the workplace
Her advice on how to find balance and lead by example to improve productivity and success
Why Naomi believes that finding your passion is key to living your joy
About Naomi:
Naomi Seddon is an international lawyer, thought-leader, author and presenter on workplace equality and issues impacting women at work.
Naomi’s legal career spans three countries over the last 16 years where she has not only worked with close to 2,000 different companies across many different markets and industries but she is also one of the few lawyers in the world to hold legal qualifications from 3 different countries. In 2016 Naomi was named by Legal 500 as a top attorney in the United States for legal advice and counseling.
Naomi works with clients across the globe on issues ranging from market entry, local compliance, managing legal risk and litigation, growth and acquisitions, global migration, global benefits plans and policies, downsizing, restructures, employee management issues and terminations.
In addition to her role as an international lawyer, Naomi is regularly called upon to advise boards and executive management on their people issues. Naomi is also an experienced board member herself and is currently a Non-Executive director, lead independent director, Audit and Risk Committee member and Chair of the Nomination and Remuneration Committee, and Chair of the Diversity and Inclusion Advisory Board of ASX-listed company Megaport Limited. Naomi also sits on the Board of Surrogacy Australia.
Read a raw, unedited transcript of this episode:
Naomi, your legal career spans three countries over the last 16 years where you worked with nearly 2000 different companies, which is incredible, and to say that you are ambitious might be an understatement. Your clients are so lucky to be working with you with all of your knowledge and experience that you land. Tell us about your legal career and why you are so passionate about helping your clients.
Yeah, I started my career in-house in Australia. Obviously you can tell from my accent that I'm not from the United States or originally. I came here about 12 years ago and I came here thinking I was going to be a California litigator, and that is not the path that my career has taken me on. I did litigate in California for a while, which gave me a great understanding of the legal system in the US, but that that is not where my career now lies. I ended up falling into the area that I mean, really, as a result of a chance meeting with an Australian government official and I realized that there was this gap in the market with assisting companies around international expansion. And so that really was the start of my journey into this area and it progressed and developed over the years. I've now helped over four hundred companies expand their business globally. (UM) I do predominantly work within the apex region and the US, although not exclusively, I've helped companies from all over the world. It's been an absolutely amazing career and it's taken me (YOU KNOW) all over the world, which has been phenomenal. And then as a result of my personal journey, it led me in a little bit of a different direction. I joined a few boards about three years ago, and so I think building my boat portfolio, I now sit on four different boards and I just released my first book on women's health issues and the workplace in December last year on my 40th birthday. So, I do a lot of work in the diversity and inclusion space now, and that really is my passion. Congratulations. And it seems to make sense because you understand life in Australia and life in the US. So, it seems to make sense for you to want to help companies to do business in both places or in the other countries that you're licensed in.
Yeah, that is actually been a big part of why I've been successful, I believe, because a lot of people can advise on certain issues, but it does make a big difference when you actually leave to a particular process as well. I'm an expat. I've gone through the process of expanding into a new country. I know what that entails. I've also expanded businesses as an expat into this country and operated businesses in other countries I've also lived in other countries, I've lived in London as well. So, it does bring a really different perspective when you're able to advise clients, not just from a high level, but I can actually talk to the practical realities as well. Is there a favorite client case that you can share with us? Oh, there's too many. Over the years I've worked with some amazing organizations. I do love the companies that genuinely care about implementing better policies and practices for their employees, particularly those organizations that know there's always going to be some legal risk when you're looking to do something that's pretty innovative. But they do it anyway because they say the real value in that and they're the organizations that I really love working with. And that seems to be a big topic among a lot of the women that I'm talking to. It's, how do we look at the employee and what they need? How do we build a company around making sure our employees are taken care of? Because that's really how you build the best teams and get the best work.
Well, absolutely. And it's actually really the whole reason behind my book. It's not just nice to have any more, it's actually an essential. And there's a number of reasons why and we all know about the Great Recession that was happening at the moment. Employees are now interviewing employers and not service employees or seeking out companies that are actually providing better benefits, better support. They want to know what the diversity is like within the organization and how the organization really tries to assist employees. [12.8s] And I think part of it has changed everybody's perspective as well. We're now seeking out different types of opportunities. So this is something that organizations have to be looking at because there is a war on talent, particularly in some key areas and within some markets.
And I don't know if it's the optimist in me, but I look at this as an exciting time because change can be fun and change can be better for everyone at times.
We are at a point where it is absolutely critical and the reason why is because unfortunately we've gone backwards massively on the issue of gender equality prior to the pandemic. It was bad enough, it was estimated to take about 100 youths to close the gap. It's now estimated to take about one hundred and thirty five point six. I mean, I've seen some experts that are even estimating it could be longer. Why does this matter? there's so much research out there to show the benefits that an organization will (you know) experience by having better diversity within their teams at all levels, not just on boards. we've had for a long time why it makes sense to have a diverse board, but it's actually just equally as important within the wider organization as well. Profits can be placed a 50 percent greater when you have diversity within organizations, so that's just one statistic. There are so many, but it really is something that organizations need to be looking at. I wrote this book on women's health because my view is this is an issue that directly relates into the issue of gender equality in the workplace. And just to give you one small example of why I say that, we have more women over 50 now than ever before in history globally, that of working within organizations. We have an older workforce. What does that mean? It means that more women within your organization are going to be going through menopause and the impacts of that on the workforce. And that is not something we've typically discussed before, but the workforce is changing and we need to be adapting accordingly.
It's so true. And to your point about going through COVID and women in the workforce. As a mom of twins, I'm a mom of twins. I know you are too. homeschooling was a challenge and it fell a lot towards women. And I see how if they had to make a choice between how to care for their families. I see how that choice could have been incredibly difficult. And you are the author of Milk and Margaritas. We have not yet shared the name of your book while we were chatting Share with us the topic of your book and why you were compelled to write it.
Yeah. I've presented all around the world on women's health in the workplace and why I want organizations to stop thinking about this issue anymore. And every time I would present on this, I would have a line of women at the end lining up to speak to me saying, You've got to write a book. And so I knew it was something that I was always going to do. It was something I felt compelled to do, but I wanted to have a kind of an end to my journey before I got to that point. I felt like it was really important as a female leader to write about my experiences, the mistakes I made along the way. What I learned and I also wanted to create a handful of the business case. So I wanted organizations to be able to pick up my blog and go and start having conversations within their own organizations and creating that business case for why it makes sense to care and also starting to create the business case for change. So what led me to all of these? Well, in the space of two years, I lost four babies, one at five months. I then went through about 100 tests. I had nine surgeries, including a hysterectomy, and then I was very lucky to have children by a surrogate. However, they were born extremely prematurely at 28 weeks, and so we spent almost four months in the hospital. That all was pretty painful, as I'm sure you can imagine, but that unfortunately was not the end of my story. I then went through a very public legal battle to gain parental rights in Australia, where my husband and I are both from because I felt very strongly that nobody was going to tell me that my children were not mine. After everything that we've been through
And can you share with us why? Why did you have to go through that process?
Yeah. Commercial surrogacy is illegal in Australia, but it actually goes further than that because it's a crime in three states. So, I like to say I became the accidental advocate for surrogacy rights in. Travel here is certainly not my intent, but that was what resulted, and I now sit on the board of Surrogacy Australia. And so I trying to advocate for change in this area, and that's become so critical that we do make changes because at the moment, with the situation that's going on in the Ukraine, there's been so many surrogate babies as we've all seen in the media that have been in this terrible situation there. And there's been a number of Australian parents that have children there. And one of the reasons why families are forced out of Australia is because there is just such limited access to surrogacy within Australia. We desperately need change in this recent situation, I just highlighted that another level.
And you bring up women in the workforce and the things that we go through. I went through IVF as well and I remember going into work and they're putting so many different chemicals in your body on a daily basis in order to have children, and it was the only way we could have children. So, in order to have them, you have to go through these things. And I remember the challenges of sitting through meetings. And to your point, that's where I think companies and organizations can be mindful of a human being and what they're going through. Yes, they're showing up to work.
And there's a few different aspects to this. I think firstly, it's an issue that relates directly to the gender pay gap because women who are experiencing health issues or fertility issues typically have to take time off work. A lot of the time, they don't want to tell their company about it because they feel fearful of what the implications are going to be. So it does have direct implications in that way. I think the other thing is absolutely right. I mean, I was fortunate, I suppose, that I only had to do three rounds. Some people go through these three years and years. I've got friends that have done, 50 or 60 rounds over 10 years. I mean, it's just, you know, the impact to your body mentally. I think a lot of people don't realize what is actually involved in IVF, either. I mean, typically when you're going for a round, you're there every second day, sometimes every day. It is a big commitment emotionally, financially. It is a time commitment. And yeah, if you don't feel comfortable enough to be able to speak to your employer about this, then it's a big problem. This year's theme, the International Women's Day, I loved because it was like the bias, and I think this is so applicable to women's health issues in the workforce. It is something that we just haven't discussed, and there is still this stigma around women's health. And you know, I try and talk to companies about this very issue because I think that one has to be having conversations empowering and manages to have better conversations with employees, but starting to have open conversations about things like motility and menopause so that we can start breaking down that stigma or that bias around some of these issues.
It's so true, and you remind me of something I remember when I was pregnant with the twins, I was working with an all male team and I was an entrepreneur at the time, but I did not tell them until I was five months pregnant. I saw them at three months pregnant, and I think they might have just thought I was gaining weight. But I didn't tell them till five months pregnant because I didn't want them to think, Oh, she's going to step back or not involve me as much. And then when I didn't even tell them I was having twins, I told them I was having a baby. I was able to do this because we were all spread out across the country. We were a team that would talk virtually. And then occasionally have to meet in person. then I announced the babies were born and they said babies, and I said, yes, I had to. I was even worried and I was working for myself. So, I can see how there is that fear around, oh, maybe they won't take on as much responsibility or maybe they're going to step back. Right? It's interesting.
This is not just a male female issue, by the way. No, it's not. Women are definitely very critical of other women when it comes to this issue as well, and it's something that I've written quite extensively about in the book. I think, and I was guilty of this, too. I've definitely been guilty of this thing in my career. I had nine surgeries over two years and then I would have a staff member that would say, I can't attend this hearing because I've got the flu. And I would think, oh my goodness, I just had major surgery and I was on the floor that afternoon and you get the flu and it and that was wrong of me, right? There has to be a better way than simply pushing through and we have to. Get better at supporting our staff, and honestly, there is research to show that when you do your best and we support wellness within the workplace and we find ways to support our employees, they can actually be up to 10 percent more profitable and productive for the organization. So, we're all guilty of this. Yes, we've all got this implicit bias, but we think that literally our financial reasons and business reasons why it makes sense to be more supportive of our employees in these situations. But yeah, I mean, I can completely relate. And it's one of the reasons why I did such a crazy thing, like having surgery. And then I, after being under general anesthesia, get on a conference call. And I was wrong in my situations, not only for myself, but I was also setting a really bad example for other women as well.
Yeah. And I think it's open to the human aspect. we're all looking deeper at how we're human beings and we want to accomplish things in our work and in our life. But at the core, you know, technology just speeds our pace, it seems.
Well, that's another big issue, where's the line between the workplace and our personal lives anymore? It's not even that it's become blurred anymore. It's like there is no line. It goes on. I think we all need to get much better at setting some boundaries, and that was something that I was really poor at before, and I've definitely got a lot better. And I have to say, the year that I finally decided to make some changes in this area and it was really because it was forced upon me. I ended up back in the hospital for my surgery and I thought at that point, I have to make some changes and feel like something has to give because I wanted so much of my body that I can cover.
You're also passionate about what you do, and I am too. And when you have that passion, it can be hard to strike the balance.
Yeah, it is. We all struggle with that. We all have times that we don't thrive. The other thing is we've all been told this big lie as women that, you know, you can have it all. And I think you can have a body, but not all at the same time. And we can't beat up about that and say that there are times when, like, this week, I've had a crazy weight because I've just the same problem that I've been working to do in the morning. And I haven't seen my kids and then I feel those things built around. Oh my goodness, I'm not spending time with them and you have to stop yourself. It's not every day that I'm doing that. I'm going to have this badly because I'm trying to catch up and I will make sure that I spend some time with them over the weekend. And we have to know that that is how life is sometimes and not made up for that.
And I know Balance isn't always liked word, but I think it really is, having one week where, OK, you're working a lot more, but maybe in the next week you get to step back a little bit and spend more time with family and friends or spend more time giving yourself that health care. And to me, I think that's a form of balance. It's just finding everyone's unique form, a balance.
Yeah, you're exactly right. It is so important, though, and I think it's something that not enough people focus on, particularly, it's not just about spending time with us. We need to focus on wellness for ourselves as well as women entrepreneurs, particularly women. Very bad at that too. I mean, we all are, honestly. The year that I introduced bonus into my life and I got better at it and therefore fell off the wagon. That would be hard on yourself. We all do. Exactly. I actually was more profitable that year than any year in my entire career, and that's really good. But the proof is in the pudding. You look at yourself more, you are more likely to be productive and successful. I mean, honestly, the truth.
That's so true. What was the writing and publishing experience like and what would you say to someone going through that process? It was so interesting. I'm someone that I've always loved writing. I've written a lot about it through the years I've written for Huffington Post that involves more updates. And so, when I started this story, I thought, Well, I can write a book. I've written all my life. I've always loved writing. I did a journalism degree with my motivation. So, I focused on what I of the process, and I realize it is an entirely different world. There are things about writing a book that I just have absolutely no idea about. I also didn't appreciate how many people are involved in the process and need to be involved in the process. the best thing I did and I highly recommend to everybody, hire a coach because the coach is absolutely invaluable. I had an amazing role rolling that she's incredible. She really got me from the point of split to a published author. just keeping you accountable and talking, not just talking in the script, setting goals and You don't know what you don't know, right? So true. And it had to be fun to learn. Learn a new industry.
It was. It was great. And I've definitely got the writing. But now I'm about to start my second book, which I'm very excited about. I'm actually going to do a workplace theory. So the next book is going to be on neurodiversity in the workplace.
Nice. We can't wait to read it. When it comes to leadership, what is your advice for managing your team so that you work together and end up with the best outcome for your clients?
Have conversations. Don't be afraid to have conversations, it's something that so many managers are so fearful of. They might see someone struggling and I have conversations with companies all the time about basic tactics. So come to me and say, we need to terminate this person, for example. Then you start talking to them about what's actually going on. Often you find out what they've been a performer previously, but now something's happened and they're just not performing. And so, you start talking to them and saying, Well, have you had discussions with the person? Know what we've heard on the flight five that they might be going through a divorce or they've got some kind of health issues. So right to that point where you get to the termination formulations, I think the first thing you oftentimes will face, you've often got to pay some kind of separation. There are recruitment costs associated with terminating someone, finding someone new. Those productivity losses, their it is time and money when you have to manage someone and it gets to that point. They're often not always. I recognize there are some situations where you need to move people on, but I do think a lot of situations where you can have just had a conversation with the person about how you might be able to support them and empowering them to tell you what they need to succeed. I think that is absolutely critical. I think employees have a role here too, though I think so often what happens is we create this tension because an employee will come and they'll say something like, I'm going through all these health issues. And so, it's impacting my work where we need to stop picking the conversation and saying, this is what's going on. And these are some of the things I could really use right now to help me succeed in my role. When you start talking about solutions rather than problems, So, the employee is not afraid to come and actually share what's going on in their life. I had a team member working for me and she wanted increased responsibility. I went ahead and increased the responsibility and the role. And then I thought to myself, I don't think she's enjoying this. So, we had a conversation and it turned out that she didn't. And you learn in those moments to put people in the right place to do the things that they love and then they thrive. But you also write an organization has to be open about hearing that feedback.
Absolutely.
And when I was in business development, I used to always think, it's so much more expensive to gain a new client than to keep the clients that you currently have happy.
Yes, absolutely. It’s so true. And the same with employers, right? Right. With people who are working for you rather than having to your point to go out and find someone new and to your point, it's so it makes so much more sense to just have those open conversations and to make sure that everyone is happy.
Yeah, absolutely. You need to be setting people up to succeed, and I think not enough companies checking with their people, either on a level we need to know that's what is this person exactly what you said, what is this person's career aspirations? What are they asking about? Is there a different area that they really want to be working in? And sometimes that might lead to a conversation about looking for that role for your organization, even? And that's okay. It's better to get to that point and have that discussion and support that person to find what it is they're passionate about and to continue on and go down to places. That is absolutely so true.
And she built this mission is to inspire and empower you to experience a life and business that you crave, and we all crave something different. So, if you don't fit into that role, there is someone else that does. And that's the beautiful thing. Absolutely. It's so true.
You are a mom of twins building an incredible career, and there are so many layers to life. Our friends, family, work, travel, self-care and making sure we take time for ourselves, which we talked about. What advice would you give for someone who's managing a busy lifestyle?
I think it's not thinking itself. I'm really trying to implement wildness into my life, but the other thing is that I would add to that loneliness that you just try to put money into them giving back as well. I'm a big believer in finding time to give back in some way, with everything going on in the world right now. We all need to be so thankful for what we have in our life and our blessings, and I think we all should be finding a way to get there. When you have that on top of the list. It's hard. We all have it's easy to feel overwhelmed and I think feeling overwhelmed by the last few weeks thinking about all these things and highlight them and hope that I will, right? Because I'm born of young twins, there's really no way to avoid that at this age and stage because I'm with you Yeah, it's a challenge, but I think you've just got a take each day as it comes. Try not to get stressed about it. I am the peace plan I have released. I love you can see behind me. I've got a whiteboard here. I'm not someone that just is very digital. I want to say things in my office. I like to take this off. I love what with spreadsheets and I couldn't often do all that I do and keep it all, you know, organize in my life without challenges and labels and spreadsheets. So I'm very big on that. And there's also something really satisfying about being able to pick things up too.
Absolutely. And when it comes to the creative process and kind of a free flow, it's nice to write things down because it's less structure. You can be a little more creative and free flowing. I asked this question at the end of every episode because as we've talked about, it's so important to bring joy into our daily lives. Magic happens when we focus on the part of ourselves and our business. That brings us joy. What is one tip that you can leave with us today about how you find and live your joy?
I would say find your passion. Life is far too short to be doing something that you don't love. We don't. We're never going to love every single day. I mean, I think that's impossible. We all have good days and we all have bad days. But if you are not feeling passionate about the work that you're doing, then I really encourage you to try and keep it all moving to something else because we only get one shot at this one. And I think it's just so important to try to find your passion. But also, I would say make sure that you have about that time with the special people in your life, because it just makes the hard days much more worthwhile.
So true. Such good advice. Thank you so much for being with us today, Naomi. You have built and are still building an incredible career. Please share with our listeners how and where they can find you. Yeah, thank you. You can find me at Naomi Seddon dot com, or on Instagram at Milk and Margaritas.