What a Dermatologist and a Mayor Didn't Know About Running a Business

Melanie Barr: Welcome to She Built It. I'm Melanie Bar. What happens when a dermatologist who treats skin [music] cancer and a kidney transplant recipient with a deeply personal reason to care about sun protection decide [music] the category needs to work better. Dr. Whitney Hovanic is a double board certified dermatologist who diagnoses and treats skin [music] cancer. Hillary Shave is a kidney transplant recipient, entrepreneur, and mayor who knows firsthand the importance of sun protection. Together, they co-founded Spooge, a daily SPF brand built for [music] people who love being outdoors and want some protection that actually fits into their everyday life. Whitney and Hillary, [music] welcome to She Built It. Welcome to She Built It. I'm Melanie Bar. Thank you for joining us, Whitney and Hillary.

Speaker 2: Thank you for having us.

Melanie Barr: What made you certain that a dermatologist needed to build a better

Speaker 2: sunscreen brand? So, I'm glad you asked because that comes up a lot because there are a lot of sunscreen brands out there, but still people are very reluctant to put on something that can save their life. So, I thought we could do it better and make sunscreens that feel like skincare. They're a little fun, a little edgy. I have kids. I've fought the battle of give me your little face and let's put sunscreen on you. And now as they go into their teenage years and they have to make their own decisions, I wanted something that would also get the attention of this generation that is spending a lot of money at Sephora but not necessarily including the most important step in their skincare routine, which is sunscreen.

Speaker 3: Yes, it's so true. I have a daughter and I have twins and they are both very athletic so they're outside all the time and as a result in soccer and baseball all outside and I'm outside so I'm constantly telling them put on sunscreen. I say it five five to 10 times a day usually. And then I'm also thinking about myself cuz I'm sitting on the sidelines in the sun. So I am outside a lot more. And you're right, my daughter all about Sephora, all about Ulta Beauty, all about the things, but I am constantly saying, make sunscreen part of that routine.

Speaker 2: Yeah. I get asked a lot, what is the most important anti-aging product? And I think people are looking for it's a retinol, it's a laser, it's Botox. And I'm like, no, it's actually sunscreen. You can do all those things, but if you skip that one step, you're basically taking your money and throwing it away.

Melanie Barr: So true. Tell us about Spoge and what makes it different.

Speaker 3: What makes it different is that we are a fun brand with a serious mission. We actually really are leaning hard into edutainment. This generation doesn't want to be preached to. They really sort of [laughter] and I think they also want you to somewhat speak their language. And so I think we're different in the way that we message products actually are very much formulated like Whitney

Speaker 2: said skin care but then ESPF factor. So that's really a huge benefit I think instead of just you've always heard for so long and we've heard it Whitney and I started this because we were doing free skin checks in my city. I'm the mayor in my city but also full disclosure I'm here in my private capacity but I'm a a big believer in public access to health.

Speaker 2: We're on a mission of getting our community access to health care, skincare. So, we started doing free skin checks and we kept hearing over and over again, "Oh, I don't want to put on sunscreen. It's white. It's sticky. It's boring." And so, we decided that we could probably formulate something that didn't feel like sunscreen. We didn't know at first if that was even possible, but it actually is. And so, I think that's also a difference between our brand and the regular sunscreens that people typically are used to seeing. And so that also sets us apart. But I think our messaging too, we like to say it's very cheeky. We have one product that just won best facial sunscreen in men's health and that is ghosted. And the tag

Melanie Barr: congratulations.

Speaker 2: That's so got that. That's a huge honor. But the tagline is disappears as fast as last week's hookup. So it's fun. It's memorable, but it doesn't feel like a chore.

Melanie Barr: And I've seen your social. It is fun and it makes you want to use it. And for kids and people who are outside all the time, that's what's going to make them want to reach for it is the fun element, even though there's a health benefit beyond it. And I found that I'm sitting on a sideline more often and I'm looking at my arms thinking, "Wow, I'm getting more sun than I'm expecting, even if I'm under a tent or just being out in the sun all in games all weekend. I'm just at that stage of life." But I looked at my arms the other day and I thought, I'm getting a lot more sun than I expected.

Speaker 2: And when you go into retailers, there's only a couple brands usually. And I was in Target the other day and needed to just pick up a quick sunscreen because we're running out because we're always outside. And I couldn't find anything that wasn't a spray. It was literally not something that was a spray.

Melanie Barr: I know. And it's so interesting. And I

Speaker 2: watch people and a lot of the sprays, that's one thing, too. We make mineral sunscreens and most of the sprays are chemical sunscreens. And we don't need to, we're not knocking chemical sunscreens cuz there's some good ones out there. But when you watch somebody and I were playing pickle ball and I was like, "Oh my god, look at this lady. She's putting sunscreen on her kid and I just watched the entire wave disappears into the universe as she's spraying her kid and he maybe got like one drop on him and then they were on their way."

Year-round sunscreen

Speaker 2: So, it's really hard to find a good body sunscreen, especially somehow Target thinks the sun season ends in the end of summer, but you're in LA, it's year round. We're in Reno. We go from to high altitude sun and snow, which is even just as bad. I spend a lot of time on the ski race course watching my kids and you're just getting beat with the sun from above and then the reflection. And our whole thing is really truly you need to be wearing sunscreen every day. So we want there to be more options out there.

Speaker 2: Sprays are great, but our also our education point on a spray is that should never be your first application.

Speaker 2: That's your let's keep on going with a spray, but you should always use a creambased sunscreen first because you're going to get better coverage. And that's the one thing too is that people underutilize sunscreen. So actually to get the SPF value that's on the bottle, you have to use an enormous amount of sunscreen. So you have to use a shot glass worth on your whole body or on your fingers, you want to do like two finger spread or a nickel size, which is a little bit more achievable, but nobody ever uses imagine if you were using a shot glass every single day on your to get that application. So it's just not practical. And so a spray is great, but again the SPF value you get from it is very low. And I think it gives people a false sense of protection.

Daily sunscreen routine

Speaker 2: I would think a mineral sunscreen could be part of your routine. It's something you wake up and do every day and every morning rather than thinking, "Oh, I'm going to use a spray as I walk out the door."

Do Me

Speaker 2: It's funny you say that cuz we have a product called Do Me. Often times I'm going out for a run, but literally even when I'm not, I put on my sunscreen do me because my skin feels so good. And then I make a video and I send it to Hillary and I'm like, "No joke, every morning I get a video from Whitney, which actually makes me very happy because when I met Whitney, I was a little intimidated cuz she's one of those and she's a dermatologist. So I'm thinking, how do I get skin like Whitney's?" And I saw in her bathroom on her counter, she had 14 products. So I'm like, "No, I've got to use 14 products to look like this." That is not the case anymore because Doomy has hyaluronic acid and nyinomides in it and so it's skin care as well. That's what becomes sort of the daily routine because it covers both. So that's what's really great is to now see Whitney have four products instead of so many. It's achievable.

Melanie Barr: What is the biggest constraint on your growth right now and what are you doing to remove it?

Speaker 2: As a small new brand, it's visibility, right? It's getting eyes on the brand and just reaching a broader audience. It's marketing. It's budget, right?

Speaker 2: We're a new brand. And I don't think Hillary and I really understood going into this. She had a better concept than I did because she's been a business owner before, but I'm a doctor and what you have to invest as a brand in PR, marketing, free products, getting yourself out there. I had this preconceived notion that we were just going to have inventory and we would sell it and then we would have more money and then we would make more. And it's a long road to becoming cash positive. So, it's it's a little bit of both and it's a roller coaster. And it's good that you have both sides of the business, a doctor and someone who's businessminded because you train to be a doctor, which is is really important, but that doesn't necessarily give you the business side.

Speaker 2: Doctors are notorious for being terrible business people. And I feel like I've gotten an MBA. There are so many things I've learned. I had no idea what ROAZ was. I had no idea. We're on these marketing calls and they're like, "How are your tacos?" And I'm like, "Chicken,

Speaker 2: She doesn't give herself enough credit.

Speaker 2: She's amazing. We're both hustlers. We both work 24/7. We have the same work ethic. And obviously to become a doctor takes tremendous dedication. So, it's a journey. And some days are there's a lot of highs and some days there's a lot of lows. It also makes it a little bit easier when you have someone that you sort of pick you up when you're down. I think we're workaholics too, so that does help and also the passion behind what it is you're building and you're making it fun, which is more fun along the way.

Speaker 2: Bad day. Somebody, I don't know, something will happen. You'll get some piece of news. Oh, we can't fill this tube. We can't. We're going to have a delay and you're just like, why am I doing this? And then I'll see on Instagram somebody will post that they're using our product or that they loved our product. And I'm like, we can deal with all the rest of this. The fact that we have a product that people are wearing and inadvertently they may not get skin cancer down the road or their kid may not. It comes back to the core and you're like, all right, we'll chug along and you just pick yourself back up and keep on going.

Melanie Barr: So true. Where you win the award and it came along at the right time and you're like, that's the next dose of motivation that I needed to get over the next hurdle. Where is AI creating the most leverage for you as you build and grow

Speaker 2: Spooch? We want to stay really rooted in authenticity when it comes to our marketing cuz you're seeing so many different brands using it and we want to make sure that it's really our voice. So I'd say on the marketing side we're not.

Speaker 2: However, I think there are some really good cases to be had especially when it comes to maybe some educational aspects of what we're doing with the brand because then it gives us a broad range to use AI in that capacity. But we're really not leaning in on the marketing side. I think there's still a lot of unknown and I know a lot of brands are doing it, but we really want to stay rooted in our own voice and more organic media.

Melanie Barr: Definitely. How are you approaching visibility in a crowded sunscreen market?

Speaker 2: That's always a good question. I think we've been fortunate in the world in which we live with kind of that dermatology professional space. We've gotten a lot of wins in terms of press releases and getting notable things like a Vogue beauty editor saying that we were her favorite mineral sunscreen after she found us in the Vogue beauty closet which was like highlight of my life. We're going to different events. We're going to some like Complex Con.

Speaker 2: You might not normally find a sunscreen brand. We're trying to bring our product to the people. We're doing a lot of that in the ski industry, social media posting, but that's again so much harder. you have everybody says you just need that viral moment and you're like what does it even take to get there then I'll post some stupid video that'll get 200,000 views of my husband on a beach in France and I'm like that why did that get visibility whereas everything we're we're working hard is not algorithms are so challenging so I think it's just about getting your product into the hands of people who need to try it and love it and then also being where people are when we do in-person events that's when we're most successful But we have day jobs, so we can't be there. We can't be everywhere all the time.

Melanie Barr: How has your leadership changed as

Speaker 2: you've both grown as founders? It's dynamic leadership. You have to be really flexible because when you work with a lot of different people, they have different leadership styles or things that motivate them. And so I think Whitney and I have really learned that what motivates people are a little differently. And you just have to find out what motivates them. And we really try to lean in to that because we work with so many different aspects. I think that's another thing about doing a sunscreen brand or skincare. There is a lot of different levels from PR, marketing, formulation, FDA regulations. It's ongoing. You work with a lot of different personalities. We just really try to be very flexible, but also the approach has to be very different depending on who you're working with at that time. Mhm. Mhm.

Speaker 3: I think too because I I'm sure it's very frustrating to work with us because Hillary's the mayor. She's like at any given moment we could be in a meeting and she's like, "There's some crisis. I got to go."

Speaker 3: That also in my job when I'm seeing patients, I'm kind of unavailable. So, I try I'm on my phone in between and answering text messages. But if you're on our team, you have to realize that we're also trying to balance these other very full-time careers. And I think where we really want to be as leaders, and we said this from the very beginning, we only want to build a company with people who we enjoy working with. We've built our other careers. And in those careers, we have to manage a lot of people. Hillary has to manage 250,000 of them. I have medical assistants and nurses. And I think in this own company where we get to shape some of those interactions, we've been so fortunate to find these people who are willing to support and give, especially in these early stages. And I

Speaker 2: just want to always make them feel supported and that they're part of something bigger because a lot of them are doing things that they're going way above and beyond on their job descriptions. Finding that balance of being a leader but being also a friend cuz we're in this together at this point. And that's the best thing about being an entrepreneur is the ability to shape that culture, the company culture and the building of the teams. Yeah, we've always said that since day one. We wanted it to really operate like a family because families sometimes are challenging and difficult, right? And then but at the end of the day, they're your team. They're your people. They're your family and you stick by them and you fight together and you love together and you cry together. All those good things. But we wanted that really early on. M people that we could really grow with and be a part of the company. Not just a paycheck, but really own part of this company. And you're building a brand that's fun. So, I'm sure for your team members, that's a fun thing to be a part of, too.

Speaker 2: Well, there's a lot of laughs [laughter] with there's a lot of laughs.

Melanie Barr: How do you balance that with strong

Speaker 2: clinical credibility?

Balancing fun and clinical credibility

Speaker 2: Yeah, that's our whole thing is like fun brand serious mission. So on the side in the regulatory side, we're making sure that we are very stringent in our SPF testing and our products are dermatologist tested, which does not mean I put it on my face and said that's good. They actually go through a process called RIT testing and making sure that when we're choosing ingredients that there's a purpose to these ingredients, but then also not taking ourselves too seriously. Being very honest and open and sharing because I think there's a balance. There's a lot of brands out there that are very clinical and there's a very big audience that likes and loves those products. But I also think that people are very happy to see a brand where it's built for real life cuz that's and something new and fun which is differentiating you from the market.

Trade show branding

Speaker 2: Well, and it's interesting. We were at this show in in Texas last week and there were a lot of very wellestablished brands um and they make great products. They've been good partners to me in the dermatology world. Our booth got a lot of attention. So, we have bold branding.

Speaker 2: We have a big tagline, hot girls don't get burned and neither do boys. And we had a bedazzling station and we're doing things that maybe you wouldn't typically see at a trade show. And we're just doing it because I just wanted to bedazzle the caps. And I was like, other people are going to want to bedazzle, too. So, it's just bringing in the things that we love, making it part of our mission. And I think in those settings, especially when you're in the professional channel of dermatology and medical estheticians, that they've really seen a lot of brands that are strictly clinical. And now I think for a new generation of patients and a clientele, you need to speak to them in a way that they understand or that the way that they're going to listen or going to laugh. That's what makes a

Melanie Barr: brand memorable. Mhm.

Speaker 2: Well, and and also what I was really noticing in the industry is that a lot of people now involved in skincare, be it estheticians, cosmetologists, even dermatology PAs, they're really young. You're coming out, you have people in their early 20s starting on their professional journey, and I think it's nice for them to have a brand that aligns a little bit more with what they're seeing, and they're not used to that in the clinical space. And then hopefully that translates also into the more mass market space where it's like dermatologist tested, developed, but unapproved. You have a product that's fun but also clinical and it's going to be good on your body. That's much more fun than the normal clinical. And I know my daughter, I look at her vanity and I think about her as she grows up. I have even said to her, what is going to make skin care become a part of this process? Because she's outside every day playing soccer.

Speaker 2: Well, we have a pink shimmery sunscreen. We developed Cheeky. We actually made this as the first sunscreen for your butt. This was one of our early inspirations. We were at the beach in Tahoe and I was looking around and I am going to be removing melanoma from all of these really inconvenient places. And not today, but in 101 15 years because one blistering sunburn, which can happen quite easily on skin that has not been exposed to the sun, can double your risk of melanoma. That's why we're like, let's make a body shimmer sunscreen. And so it's actually resin in the younger kids. I have a 12-year-old and I used to fight her to put sunscreen on, but she has Cheeky in her backpack and her little ghosted for her face. But they love the sparkle and shimmer. I do too.

Speaker 2: It's a nice way. And so when that sunscreen becomes more of her skin care routine, I my own personal advice on this is tell her it's makeup where I tricked my kids in the beginning is allowed them to wear tinted sunscreen.

Speaker 2: They weren't allowed to wear makeup to school, but they could wear tinted sunscreen. And so it just becomes part of something you want to put on your face versus something my mom told me I have to put on my face, right?

Melanie Barr: And my daughter is 12, too. But I remember thinking it went from I'm putting the sunscreen on them to I need to encourage them to want to do it themselves. And I'm constantly since I've had interviews. I say to them, I don't want you to have skin cancer in the future. So I'm probably putting a little bit of fear into into them. But it's so smart what you're doing to make it become part of the daily routine and fun in that way instead of thinking about something that they have to do. I think that's the other thing is meet them where they're at. We're seeing the teeny weeny bikini and so probably not

Speaker 3: going to change that. But what we can change is how they want to wear sunscreen. We don't even really call it sunscreen. We call it spooge, right? Or all screen. With cheeky, it is the first sunscreen for your ass sets. And we say protection from cheek to cheek. And it's just a beautiful highlighter. And like Whitney said, it looks more like a makeup. It's really easy to change the perception of what sunscreen has always been.

Melanie Barr: And you're really doing that when you think about your products and all the product names. It's so fun. We've talked a lot about business today. What do both of you do outside of Growing Spoosh to make sure that you're finding your joy?

Speaker 3: Whitney will tell you one thing she is a

Speaker 2: maniac about. I love being outdoors. So, I'm like you. I'm a mom. So, I'm often times on kids sporting events, but I try to find time for myself in the winter. I love to ski. That's why I live in Reno. We have such easy access to it. But then I also I run. So, I got up this morning and despite the smoke in the air, made sure I went out and just having a moment with my Nevada sage brush and a little sunrise in the morning is even if it's just 15, 20 minutes. I would love to be out on a mountain for two hours, but it's just when you're have two full-time jobs and kids, that's not always possible. But just finding that little bit of a moment. Really trying to remember to take a minute and exercise when you get busy. That's often the first thing that goes.

Speaker 3: Really, to be honest with you, you'll find Whitney on a ski hill. You really will. She is an avid skier and which is great cuz quite honestly, we also did a sunscreen called Face Shots and it's for skiers by skiers. That's what Whitney does on the weekends. And I used to be a figure skater in my past life. Now that I'm not doing that, Whitney got me back on the hill after lots of years.

Melanie Barr: Nice.

Speaker 3: So, we're both hanging out on the ski mountain.

Speaker 2: Yeah. What Hillary doesn't know is there is a great Wi-Fi connection at our local ski area. So, all of our Friday meetings will be at the mountain, which is actually a really great networking place. And I have taken many a Zoom call from the parking lot or from the cafeteria. Many a phone call. I remember being on the phone one time. They're like, "Is that wind?" Oh,

Melanie Barr: not [laughter] great connection. I love that. And your team's probably motivated, too, to want to meet or or meetings in those places.

Speaker 3: Oh, we're kind of scattered all around the country, but I will absolutely be bringing everybody out here this winter for a little retreat, even if they just want to app prey cuz app preying is just as important as the ski park. You have to stick with your passions. But I'm also thinking that we're going to see lift tickets on the balance sheet because she gets up there and she's putting face shots on face shot stickers and giving them to everyone. And then literally the next week I will see people like, "Oh, I I met your partner

Speaker 2: Whitney on the skill." It is no joke that if you want to go viral, that's how you do it. Go to a ski mountain, pass out your products, and boom, there you go. [laughter] People are so happy.

Speaker 2: Yeah, they're happy. And it's to have something specific for their sport, I'm sure, is great, too.

Speaker 2: It's fun. We've That's been actually a lot of fun developing that almost little niche within our product line. But again, it's all about finding products for people that fit within their means because pretty much everything you do, you're going to get some UV exposure.

Speaker 2: And as climate changes, we haven't even touched on that. It's there's the holes in the ozone are getting bigger. That just the environmental pollutants. So even sunscreen, even though we think about it for UV protection, it's a barrier on your skin. And so zinc oxide is a great tool for protecting your skin barrier because if your skin barrier is inflamed, you end up with eczema and you end up with other inflammation problems with your skin. You can worsen your acne. So there's all these things. I think we sometimes forget that our skin is our largest organ. We think about it for making us look pretty and keeping us together, but it's alive. It's these cells, they're talking to each other all day long, and you need to take care of them.

Speaker 2: We do have to be reminded of that, right? It's so easy to forget it. It is really truly also a good outward expression of what's going on internally. If your skin is looking good, then you're more likely to be healthy internally. That's what one of the cooler things about being a dermatologist is sometimes you can pick up on conditions prior to them being people knowing what's going on just by how their skin looks. But that's why you have to protect this little baby.

Melanie Barr: And Hillary, you have a demanding role.

Melanie Barr: What do you do to make sure that you're finding and living your joy?

Speaker 3: Rescuing animals. I don't know. I think for me family is really important, friendships are really important, but I I like to read a lot and there isn't a lot of free time because we are workaholics. So, we sort of mend both of them together. I'm always researching something. We've really done a lot of research on pollution and your skin and things like that. So, I don't know why, but I I find all of that fascinating. And I like to read a lot. And

Melanie Barr: are you reading anything fun or is it

Speaker 3: mostly research? Actually, [laughter] Whitney and I are so passionate about access to health. She has a background in public health. We're just very aligned. We didn't do this to say, "Oh, we want to get out there and make a lot of money." We really wanted to get out there and change habits. That can save lives. So, we're really enjoying what we're doing.

Speaker 3: And I think that's the thing too right now when you're in this entrepreneur mode, which funny cuz I used to be a

Speaker 2: little bit more protective of my free time. And right now, I think there's a lot of things I used to do. I used to do yoga. I used to do all these other things. I would say that this building this business is actually fun and so it becomes very people are like don't you need to take a day off and I'm like I actually I don't like and I think that's how Hillary is. She's she is I actually have to make her slow down sometimes. And she and I have gotten to do some cool travel trips together for the business and for other things. And sometimes it's just nice to go wander around and see new things. You can mix it up. But it is very important because you don't also want to crash.

Speaker 2: That's the hardest thing. You got to take care of yourself.

Melanie Barr: I love what you're building with Spooge. It's so fun. Thank you for helping us take care of our skin in a fun way. Please share with us how and where we can find both of you.

Speaker 2: Right now, we have a website, spoge.co. We're selling in the med spa space and dermatology clinics. We're now pretty much nationwide, which is great. We're also available on Amazon.

Speaker 2: But a lot of people reach out to us on Instagram. A lot of people ask for doing collabs and joint partnerships, and we love that. We love to work with other female founders. We would encourage anyone listening to your wonderful podcast, She Built It, to reach out to us. We love to work with a lot of different people doing different things and especially women.

Speaker 2: We've actually had a really cool thing happen. We'll just reach out to brands. I have actually connected with a lot of dermatologists who have founded their own products and it is really cool because we support each other. I was texting with one of them this morning.

Speaker 2: She had sent me a card in the mail which was so sweet saying that I was the first dermatologist she connected with when she was talking about launching her swimwear company and we've created this little internal culture. It's so amazing to have those bonds. I think that has been one of the most magical parts of this journey but then also supporting as we work with college ambassadors and we're working with medical students. We really want to help them bring them up in the world. It's an adventure for